Author Topic: Time for a national id?  (Read 2412 times)

expat

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choose freedom
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2008, 03:21:15 am »
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I don't think we should surrender our liberties for the sake of security in the face of terrorism. Ben Franklin's caution against surrendering liberty for the sake of security still applies.

The one thing our present enemies are unlikely to do is effectively use our freedom and openness against us effectively. They can cause us quite a bit of trouble, but they can't defeat us. The only people that can defeat us is ourselves.

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself? It does seem so to me.

David Cressey

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Re: choose freedom
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2008, 06:04:17 am »
I think we have more to fear than fear itself.  I hope my words didn't convey the opposite.  

Terrorists have real goals that are the deadly enemy of liberty.  Terror is a means to that end.  We need simultaneously to maintain liberty as best as we can in the context of a dangerous world, and at the same time,  not succumb to panic in the face of people who want to panic us.  


We shouldn't overestimate our enemy.  We shouldn't underestimate our enemy.  And we shouldn't confuse the largely neutral bystanders with the enemy.

Having said all that,  I fear those in our midst who would do away with our liberty in order to protect us more than I fear the external enemy.



ilconsiglliere

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Re: choose freedom
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2008, 06:52:08 am »
More hysterical paranoia if you ask me. This will not deter anyone who does anything illegally now from continuing to do it. What it will do is button down your citizens so you can keep tabs on them but thats about it.

Illegal immigrants live in a cash lifestyle. They are paid in cash and pay for everything in cash generally. That includes rent, food, gas, etc...

Illegal immigrants generally dont go to Visa and take out credit cards nor do they use credit and banks in general. So poof, monitoring of that is out the window.

As for getting stopped and detaining them. Just how is that going to happen. You pull them over for X and you check their ID and its wrong. Do you arrest them on the spot? They dont do that now even when it is detectable and obvious that its a forgery.

This is just another way to button down the citizenry so you can keep tabs on them.

PhilFromNY

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2008, 07:18:20 am »
The terrorists who attacked the Pentagon and destroyed the World Trade Center would have been stopped if the threat of attack had been taken more seriously. The signs were there. We just weren't looking.

National ID cards won't stop the next attack. The cards are a way that fear is being packaged by professional political machines seeking power. No matter what we do we will never be invulnerable. Security will not be found with National ID cards, mass wiretapping, the suspension of habeas corpus, torture, or the assumption of unchecked power by an imperial presidency.

Converse to the current discussion our security comes from our freedom. Always through history  when the power of the central governing authority is unchecked the lives and rights of the people is held to have little value.

David Randolph

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Re: Or up it goes in nuclear smoke?
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2008, 08:43:11 am »
>What would American society be like if the Internet were down for 6 months or a year, and no other electronic transactions could take place? No food distributed? No gasoline or diesel?

We would cope. I have faith that some people will make a way to get things done without following government / big business orders. The people who will have trouble are those who want to follow orders and to have rigid rules for society.

It is precisely because of the probability of disasters that we need to have freedom. Yes, people abuse the freedom. But that is the cost of having the capability of having people who will act when none of the rules make sense anymore. In that light, when the earthquake hit SF back in the 1980's, people jumped in, figured out what they could do and did things instead of waiting for the authorities to give orders. So, when LA has its earthquake, there will be people who can pull something together to help people deal with it. So, when Washington DC is invaded and burned by the British or destroyed by a bomb, the rest of the country will cope.

We need liberty so that we have the people around who can act in such situations. (They also do very well at creating new ways of making money. So, liberty is useful that way also.)

codger

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Re: choose freedom
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2008, 10:29:15 am »
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Illegal immigrants generally dont go to Visa and take out credit cards nor do they use credit and banks in general.


Is there any data to support this?

The Gorn

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There's a lot of under the table grunt work out there
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2008, 11:12:47 am »
My niece's boyfriend is a pathological case of avoiding commitment, tracking, supervision, etc. He is an extremely talented carpenter and general contracting worker, but the *only* way that he works is on side jobs for cash. The two  can't rent or buy a house on their own because the kid is basically "off the grid" and doesn't have a credit history because everything he does, bar nothing, is 100% cash.

I figure that if one Anglo US citizen 25 year old can do this and can more or less support himself that way, then tens of thousands of illegals probably can and do, also.

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datagirl

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2008, 11:23:57 am »
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National ID cards won't stop the next attack. The cards are a way that fear is being packaged by professional political machines seeking power. No matter what we do we will never be invulnerable. Security will not be found with National ID cards, mass wiretapping, the suspension of habeas corpus, torture, or the assumption of unchecked power by an imperial presidency.


Hear! Hear!

I was watching a history channel show about organized crime and a thought occured to me:  Is the "war on terror" really just a protection scam?

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Converse to the current discussion our security comes from our freedom.


Exactly.  By causing a change in our freedoms, the terrorists accomplish their goals.

Regards,
-DG

TRexx

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Re: choose freedom
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2008, 11:33:26 am »
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   Illegal immigrants generally dont go to Visa and take out credit cards nor do they use credit and banks in general.

Is there any data to support this?


I can't cite any stats, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence.  Not long ago one of the big banks in California (BoA?) was getting praised/criticized because they were offering credit cards to folks w/o social security numbers.

The local TV news has run several stories on store front check cashers that charge illegals exorbitant rates because they can't get bank accounts.  They also charge hefty fees when the illegal wants to send money back home.

I have no experience with illegals who have "permanent" jobs in factories. restaurants etc, but the ones I see working as day laborers in construction and landscaping get paid in cash.  

bossqa

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Re: choose freedom
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2008, 02:20:54 pm »
You don't have to adhere to a cash-based-only lifestyle to be 'off the grid.'  I know a fellow contractor who made a conscious choice about 10+ years ago to remove all of his real data, linked to his birth SSN, and to build up a history to a second SSN, essentially a second identity.

pm4hire

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Check cashers charge illegals 5% to cash a check
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2008, 02:25:39 pm »

The Original Dinosaur

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Re: choose freedom
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2008, 03:58:01 pm »
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Is there any data to support this?
Hah!

Everything is estimates. 12 million to 20 million illegals, a million or more coming every year.  Oh, and an estimated 3,000 per year non-Latino, mostly Arab and East Asian (Pakistani).

The only definite number is the $26 BILLION that Banco de Mexico (similar to US Federal Reserve) reports as being "remitted" from the US to Mexicans in 2006.  It's probably over $30 billion for 2007.

Since you need to give a SSN to open a bank account, and you generally need a bank account to get a credit card, I'd say it's fair to assume that most illegals operate within the cash economy.  If they get a paycheck, they cash it at a "currency exchange" store and pay the 5% vigorish.

Richardk

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Re: There's a lot of under the table grunt work out there
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2008, 10:07:38 pm »
I too believe there's a lot of work being done for cash. Maybe I'm not smart enough but I can't see how entire factories (per the news) can operate above the table with illegals. They have to be paying them cash or all their documents are fake.

I suspect that they work for so cheap that cash is the way to go.

Richardk

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Re: 'National ID was present in every tyrannical society'
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2008, 10:23:31 pm »
And what do you do with this ID once you have it?

Once this ID is in everyone's pocket, how will it stop a terrorist?

My other thought is this ID is also tied to our financial identity by the fact it has our name, dob and ssn. Since everything will need to talk to some kind of database, talk about a nice target for identity theft and they don't even need to be on our soil to do it.

Maybe this ID needs to be a separate ID stripped of financially related data. Would that make it more acceptable? I really doubt it.

David Cressey

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Re: There's a lot of under the table grunt work out there
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2008, 04:13:48 am »
News Flash:  The factories are all moving offshore.  In the words of Bruce Springsteen:  "these jobs are going boys,  and they ain't comin' back... to your home town."  


The "underground economy"  and the "post industrial service economy" fit relatively well with each other.  It's easy to outsource service labor.  It's easy to pay service workers in cash.