Author Topic: Time for a national id?  (Read 2415 times)

Richardk

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Time for a national id?
« on: January 11, 2008, 10:07:47 am »
Just reading US unveils new driver's license rules.
I'm still wondering why I should give my social security number for a driver's license? I was always told that if I'm not applying for a job to not give it out. It's not for identification purposes and what about security protecting it from hackers?

Also what the heck is the deal with checking citizenship? It really is a national id and NOT a driver's license. What if a student, guest or whatever comes here and wants to drive? In the past they got a driver's license, now they'll have to drive without one. Granted almost all come over with an International drivers license but if they don't then they are stuck driving without a license.

Once again, I'm leaning towards easy to comply with instead of driving people underground.

codger

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2008, 11:08:20 am »
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Once again, I'm leaning towards easy to comply with instead of driving people underground.



I don't want to drive them underground. I want to drive them out of the US.

Richardk

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2008, 11:36:10 am »
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I don't want to drive them underground. I want to drive them out of the US.


I agree but some will always stay and eventually become "invisible" if there's nothing they can "sign up" for.

An id you can trust is desirable but what happens when they fall off the grid? When there's nothing they can sign up for?

Some will go home but I suspect many others will stay and go underground and then how do you track them?

codger

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 11:40:15 am »
If a national ID becomes "required" of US citizens, I may go underground.

The Original Dinosaur

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2008, 11:56:32 am »
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I'm leaning towards easy to comply with instead of driving people underground.
For a citizen, legal resident or holder of a valid visa, compliance should be no problem.  Driving the others underground is good, because it makes it harder for them to operate.

For example, Mohammed Atta was busted for speeding in PA a short while before 9/11, and although he had a "valid" DL, his visa had expired.  If his DL was legended with say, "valid only with valid visa", he might have been in the slam on 9/11 instead of just driving away with a summons.

Another reason I like the Real ID idea is that ACLU is against it, and anyone that helps terrorists is my enemy.

katyt

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2008, 12:05:19 pm »
We all go underground some later time, at least our bodies.

codger

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2008, 12:13:48 pm »
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Another reason I like the Real ID idea is that ACLU is against it, and anyone that helps terrorists is my enemy.


You make a good point.

If the ACLU is for it, I'm generally agin' it.

hoytster

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RFID chip in everyone's forehead
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2008, 12:43:48 pm »
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An issue for both bar keepers and bar patrons is excessive inebriation. Have the bartender or waitress record the RFID as the drinks are served -- and the computer can BLEEP when another drink would put the imbiber over the limit, and can keep a record to prove that the bar didn't make the guy drunk. Liability problem and drunk driving solved.


Yeah, but what if a bunch of guys were sharing a pitcher of beer? How would you keep track of each individual's drinking, then?

Introducing the SmartPint(tm), which when tipped, senses the most proximate RFID chip and registers what volume of beer is associated with that particular bend of the elbow, to the computer behind the bar. That's why the RFID chip has to be in the forehead, instead of the buttock.

Now, if you wanted to track excessive use of toilet paper...

OK, time to shut down the old computer for the day. ;)

- Someone using Hoytster's computer again

TRexx

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Re: RFID chip in everyone's forehead
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2008, 01:04:05 pm »
You're about 24 years late

David Randolph

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Re: Number of the Beast!
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2008, 01:07:38 pm »
Oh, God, NO!

I have an RFID chip in my car for use on the tollway. Recently, the state sent me new plates for the car. That exposed the failure rate. It appeared that the chip was not being read somewhere about 10% of the time. The tollway has invested signficant sums in making OCR work with pictures of the license plates. That is how they are able to bill even when the RFID fails. The OCR technology is so much better than the RFID that on the latest toll road openned, they do not use the RFID and rely solely on the OCR.

RFID is a good solution to those places where we have not been able to gather data in the past. The failure rates are so high and the costs of the readers as well as the chips are enough that RFID is not a good solution for mass use.

Those are the technical reasons.

I think that I would not want to live in a society where we do not have privacy.

Here are some ideas that might have bearing on this subject

4. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
5. No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
6. In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
7. In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
8. Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
9. The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
10. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


One critical question has to be: can people change?


TRexx

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2008, 01:21:02 pm »
NJ requires multiple forms of ID to get a license.  The rules are rather complex but basically you have to prove who you are, where you live and whether you are in the US legally.  

The net result is that lots of illegals are now driving without licenses. And since that is not a crime, if they get caught, they just pay a fine.  

I don't object to states tightening the rules regarding who may get a license. What I object to is the federal government expecting the states to do their job. I believe the appropriate term is "unfunded mandate".

Richardk

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Re: RFID chip in everyone's forehead
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2008, 01:21:13 pm »
Hoytster, you've been reading your .Net book again, haven't you?

David Cressey

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2008, 01:44:20 am »
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I'm still wondering why I should give my social security number for a driver's license? I was always told that if I'm not applying for a job to not give it out. It's not for identification purposes and what about security protecting it from hackers?


You have to give it out to open a checking account,  or to apply for a credit card.  Sometimes, applying for a store's easy credit terms implies applying for a credit card.

Unfortunately, the SS number morphed from its original purpose to being a national identity number.

While I see some benefits to having a national ID,  most of this thread sounds dreadfully Orwellian to me.











PhilFromNY

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2008, 04:49:33 am »
When it comes to ID cards, implanted RFID tags and so on I'm pretty much old school. I think we should keep it simple. Just tattoo the id number on the forearm.

codger

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Re: Time for a national id?
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2008, 06:10:04 am »
And maybe "US Citizen" patches worn on our jackets. (Makes it easier for the police.)