Author Topic: Specific Tactics for Landing Technical Jobs as a Mature  (Read 1036 times)

ilconsiglliere

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Re: Specific Tactics for Landing Technical Jobs as a Mature
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2018, 05:48:19 am »
I dont think companies will hire you with just book/e-learning. They want to see that you do that exact skill/language/technology on your last job. If you dont have it, they will pass you by. Your resume needs to be an exact match. I have seen this over and over in my own job hunting.

My friend was at some in-person class (some Big Data Oracle thing I believe) last year. He was the only non-Indian in the class. The class was even taught by an Indian. There was no hostility toward him (racial problems) but they generally ignored him.

Regardless all these people were fresh off the boat, knew nothing and their resumes were total fabrications. As in outright lies. They were here on H1B. As the class was being taught the instructor would tell them that your resume has to match the job EXACTLY. He told them to fabricate job histories, what they knew and what they worked on. Told them to just make it up, nobody can verify what you did. Use your friends as references and have them appear to be your ex-manager.

At some point the instructor took my friend on the side and asked him if he was a manager. The instructor told him he was a partner in a tech body shop and that if they hired guys from his shop he would kick $$ back to the manager on a monthly basis.

Basically this is what you are up against. This is what the IT job market has evolved into. I am not sure its like this  all over the country but its definitely like this in NJ which is Indian central on the east coast. I am pretty sure its like this on the west coast as well. Not sure about the center and south.

Americans enter the job market with the mindset that its open, fair AND HONEST. Everyone is told that your resume has to be forthright and honest. No exaggerations or lies. Dont make anything up and if you do you are horrible person and should be black balled.

Nobody takes you on the side and tells you how it really is - which is that you are completing against people who will LIE and fabricate ANYTHING to get that job. The idiots in HR and recruiting have to know that this is going on but dont seem to care. They will not hesitate to put the stones to an American with exhaustive work history and background checks but these people on visas are given a free pass. I dont get it.

So what do you do? You either do what they do or you will be left in the cold. I am of the opinion you could do the learning that pxsant suggest but you best have job history to back it up. If you dont have that job history you better fabricate it.

I also think the more niche you are, the better off you are. Be it a technology or industry. Sure there are a zillion Java openings but so what? That also means you are competing against everybody and his brother.

pxsant

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Re: Specific Tactics for Landing Technical Jobs as a Mature
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2018, 05:58:39 am »
"Americans enter the job market with the mindset that its open, fair AND HONEST."

There is nothing fair and honest about the US job market, especially with HR acting as gatekeepers.  They are a huge obstacle in the way of having your resume in front of the hiring manager.

It is pretty easy to verify employment history and references on people who live and work in the US.  Verifying anything on H1B's and people who just got off the boat is virtually impossible.  It could take weeks to months to get verification back and the US HR drones know that so they don't bother.  So foreigners have a clear advantage - aside from the low cost to the employer.

So you have to learn how to work the system to get past HR and to the hiring manager where you at least have a chance.

I D Shukhov

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Re: Specific Tactics for Landing Technical Jobs as a Mature
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2018, 06:04:33 am »
Seems like it makes marketing yourself as much a problem as gaining technical skills.  What we are saying here is that some class of people are out-marketing us?

ilconsiglliere wrote:
Quote
I also think the more niche you are, the better off you are. Be it a technology or industry. Sure there are a zillion Java openings but so what? That also means you are competing against everybody and his brother.

That would be the start of marketing yourself.

pxsant wrote:
Quote
So you have to learn how to work the system to get past HR and to the hiring manager where you at least have a chance

That's why Bolles recommends skipping Fortune 500 companies and trying to get an interview at small businesses.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 06:16:30 am by I D Shukhov »

ilconsiglliere

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Re: Specific Tactics for Landing Technical Jobs as a Mature
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2018, 06:45:06 am »
"Americans enter the job market with the mindset that its open, fair AND HONEST."

There is nothing fair and honest about the US job market, especially with HR acting as gatekeepers.  They are a huge obstacle in the way of having your resume in front of the hiring manager.

It is pretty easy to verify employment history and references on people who live and work in the US.  Verifying anything on H1B's and people who just got off the boat is virtually impossible.  It could take weeks to months to get verification back and the US HR drones know that so they don't bother.  So foreigners have a clear advantage - aside from the low cost to the employer.

So you have to learn how to work the system to get past HR and to the hiring manager where you at least have a chance.

Agree with everything you wrote.

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The necessary triad of attributes that help find WORK
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2018, 07:07:38 am »
This got overlooked with the sidebar on fraudulent hiring of guest workers. Because my ego is the size of a f*cking bus I will repost.  >:D

I say that in order to be credible when looking for work you need the following. This is for I D who is the main questioner here currently but I would surmise that a salty old dog like Pxsant already knows this quite well.

Here:

Quote
When I did SW contracting my best successes were in fairly tightly defined language+platform+project type domains. I wasn't everything to everyone. I was something very specific to the rare but extant places that needed that combination of interests.

Example of a successful schtick/niche that lasted me for about 10 years from 93 to about 2005: C++ language; Windows OS with Borland and then Visual Studio tools as platform; Windows application rewrites as the project type.

I believe that Pxsant should figure out a similar triad of qualities for best success in locating a post-retooling job, not just figure that learning Java expertly will open doors.  But he already knows that...

This is just as and even more important as a job search principle in looking for software development jobs as the learning and online courses and sample apps.

Why: practically EVERY job you see listed is described like this:

Quote
The software engineer will be responsible for [building specific kind of app] on [operating system and development toolchain] with [computer languages].

I totally distrust job ads that don't somehow cover all three points. If all three attributes aren't listed, the job ad is too generic to be real. They are usually bogus headhunter/agency ads, or some neophyte / loser business that doesn't know what it's doing at all.

It's very effective targeting. When I had all three concepts lined up and in alignment with a job's requirements, I usually got an offer on the spot or at least was told "give us your rate, and please hurry, we need you."

In my own case the platform and languages used in most of industry drifted away from what I knew, and I lacked interest in tooling up again for it.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 07:29:03 am by The Gorn »
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ilconsiglliere

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Re: The necessary triad of attributes that help find WORK
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2018, 07:47:46 am »
This got overlooked with the sidebar on fraudulent hiring of guest workers. Because my ego is the size of a f*cking bus I will repost.  >:D

I say that in order to be credible when looking for work you need the following. This is for I D who is the main questioner here currently but I would surmise that a salty old dog like Pxsant already knows this quite well.

Here:

Quote
When I did SW contracting my best successes were in fairly tightly defined language+platform+project type domains. I wasn't everything to everyone. I was something very specific to the rare but extant places that needed that combination of interests.

Example of a successful schtick/niche that lasted me for about 10 years from 93 to about 2005: C++ language; Windows OS with Borland and then Visual Studio tools as platform; Windows application rewrites as the project type.

I believe that Pxsant should figure out a similar triad of qualities for best success in locating a post-retooling job, not just figure that learning Java expertly will open doors.  But he already knows that...

This is just as and even more important as a job search principle in looking for software development jobs as the learning and online courses and sample apps.

Why: practically EVERY job you see listed is described like this:

Quote
The software engineer will be responsible for [building specific kind of app] on [operating system and development toolchain] with [computer languages].

I totally distrust job ads that don't somehow cover all three points. If all three attributes aren't listed, the job ad is too generic to be real. They are usually bogus headhunter/agency ads, or some neophyte / loser business that doesn't know what it's doing at all.

It's very effective targeting. When I had all three concepts lined up and in alignment with a job's requirements, I usually got an offer on the spot or at least was told "give us your rate, and please hurry, we need you."

In my own case the platform and languages used in most of industry drifted away from what I knew, and I lacked interest in tooling up again for it.

I agree what you wrote here about the three point. Unless they are specific they are just fishing for resumes. The same thing applies to project management, business analysis and other work.  I ended up doing PM/BA because I got tired of trying to retool in the language of the month. PM/BA is a lot more stable from a skillset perspective.

Another big buzzword now is agile/scrum. Its the big holy grail at the moment. Now I am a scrum master ;) . Same pig different lipstick  >:D

Based on the projects that I am involved,  the stuff that is red hot now is the following: Mathematica, R, NONMEM, PSN, Monolix, SAS - I have yet to encounter any body shop kind of people. Its all about computational computing and they PAY.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 08:04:33 am by ilconsiglliere »

I D Shukhov

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Re: The necessary triad of attributes that help find WORK
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2018, 06:25:53 pm »
When I did SW contracting my best successes were in fairly tightly defined language+platform+project type domains.
...

I believe that Pxsant should figure out a similar triad of qualities for best success in locating a post-retooling job ...


What about this?

Language:   Python 
Project type:  Computer Security 
Platform:  Not sure 

I'd be up for starting a study group based on one of these books:  https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=black+hat+python
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 04:42:39 am by I D Shukhov »

The Gorn

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Re: The necessary triad of attributes that help find WORK
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2018, 06:34:27 pm »
I D, I'm not recommending to invent a cluster of three attributes at random at all.

What I would recommend to pursue what Pxsant is talking about (with the crash course approach he champions) is to study Indeed.com and find listed Python jobs that seem really interesting to you. Those will contain the project type+platform information.

You can then get a sense what the market wants at present and then you can mold your new job search + job study persona.

Damn, I'm on a roll of inventing shit these last couple of days!

Quote
Language:   Python 

Ok.

Quote
Project type:  Computer Security 

That's totally not an application type. WAYYYY too generic and broad. You really need to focus in on something that someone is already doing in the market.

Example: Python+"scripted DDOS bot attack testing"

Using Python to do something specific.

Quote
Platform:  Not sure


That may or may not matter. Python comes from the Gnu world so Python under the Windows, Linux, Sun, and Apple ports will all act exactly the same.

But citing a platform of preference would really help. I'd say Linux would be top dog for any Gnu based language.

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I D Shukhov

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Re: The necessary triad of attributes that help find WORK
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2018, 07:01:46 pm »
I D, I'm not recommending to invent a cluster of three attributes at random at all.
It's not random.  I picked Python because it's an important language for system programming and hopefully data analysis.  I'm hoping it's as good as Perl, which I used to love and would use it whenever I got the chance to do all sorts of stuff.

Computer security has several virtues.  Older IT workers might consider looking at themselves in a caretaking role.  Think night watchmen and looking after grandchildren.  We are in an ideal position to watch over and protect networks.   :-X

Quote

[Computer Security] is totally not an application type. WAYYYY too generic and broad. You really need to focus in on something that someone is already doing in the market.
Agree, but this can be narrowed down once a study group begins.  A quick look at the table of contents of the suggested book list shows a variety of popular hacking targets.   One book even specializes in wireless hacking

The platform could be Linux.  But after my brother-in-law's unpleasant experience on a Microsoft network I'm thinking that might be a good platform.  Again, that depends on a field survey. 

The Gorn

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Re: Specific Tactics for Landing Technical Jobs as a Mature
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2018, 08:47:59 pm »
You're looking for a study group? What on earth do you think this discussion is, anyway?

Job searches are experiential. Not theory craft.

I'm not saying that my "triad" is sacred. But it seems to fit an awful lot of IT and programming positions and I've been beholden to it unconsciously for 30+ years when looking for work.

You have to start pounding the pavement and looking at real life situations that already exist. Then model a job direction on some in-demand job situation you've observed in real life.
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I D Shukhov

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Re: Specific Tactics for Landing Technical Jobs as a Mature
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2018, 04:25:23 am »
You're looking for a study group? What on earth do you think this discussion is, anyway?

Job searches are experiential. Not theory craft.
One of the themes of this discussion is retooling.  How best to do that?  Is it lectures or a seminar?   I believe it's the latter because that is active learning, not passive.

I've been thinking about the "3 months and hit the pavement" idea.  I don't believe this is realistic because that's way too short of a time to credibly present yourself as competent.  It's great to be agile and prototype your way forward in a career change.  That way you quickly get intel about what you want to do and what's feasible, but 3 months is too short .   

10,000 hours has been proposed as the time needed to become an expert, which is what employers want, so at 20 hours a week, that's 9.6 years.  That's not at all reasonable.

If job hunting is not a survival concern because you are either employed or otherwise have a cash flow where you can last 1 year, I'm going to suggest changing 3 months to 1 year of retooling before initiating a job search.   That would give enough time, IMO, to work through 1 or 2 books in the  https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=black+hat+python list and maybe take a cert test.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 04:45:27 am by I D Shukhov »

koehj

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Re: Specific Tactics for Landing Technical Jobs as a Mature
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2018, 08:28:35 am »
Here's some non-technical advice from someone who
remembers Eddie Cantor and Fred Allen:
BE ENTHUSIASTIC AND ENERGETIC when you interview
Go to a really good barber or hairdresser
Lose your beer belly or love handles
Wear up-to-date clothes
Learn new skills every year (especially trendy ones)

Is this all superficial? Yes. Does it work? Yes. Keep knocking on doors and somebody will let you in.

P.S. I agree with the Gorn that it tales a year to become proficient in a brand new skill, but as a former boss of mine once said, "You only have to be one step ahead of the client!"




The Gorn

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Re: Specific Tactics for Landing Technical Jobs as a Mature
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2018, 08:40:07 am »
P.S. I agree with the Gorn that it tales a year to become proficient in a brand new skill, but as a former boss of mine once said, "You only have to be one step ahead of the client!"

Good post, Citizen Koehj. Thanks.

I would like to amend that one step ahead deal.

In today's business climate, everyone is a self-educated know-it-all and will carp that they saw in a Youtube video how to trivially do the thing that you have have spent 10+ years perfecting.  One may be WELL ahead of the client, but it's for naught unless THEY recognize that fact.

You might be ahead of the client but they still gotta sponsor your work. I guess that losing the love handles and personal presentation kick in as antidotes. :)

In terms of effecting actual change, I absolutely agree with you.
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I D Shukhov

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Re: Specific Tactics for Landing Technical Jobs as a Mature
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2018, 04:13:38 am »
My latest views on the subject of this thread. 


1) Stay completely away from big companies with their HR departments. 

The policy against hiring older workers is really not all that stupid, even if it is discriminatory and illegal.  The problem is cultural fit.  Big companies have rigid reporting structures and don't want problems in the chain of command.  A person reporting to someone 20 years their junior could be a problem.   Also, the broader culture stereotypes older people as being slower and possibly trespassing in a space (a workplace) where they don't belong.  Being present in such an environment can be very unpleasant for the older worker.

2) That leaves smaller companies.

This is where an older worker wants to look for a job.   It's best to figure out how specifically you can add value and what specifically the company's problem is and what they are looking for.   Personally, I've never done this kind of research on a company, but it sounds like a reasonable thing to do.

3) If you get an interview, take a Shark Tank approach to pitching yourself.

Notice how the sharks want proof they will get their money back.   "What are your current sales?"  is the first question they ask.  It proves that a person can service the market they say they can.    From there on out in a Shark Tank interview it depends on how the person comes across.  Are they enthusiastic?  Does  the product make sense?  Is the person likable?

How would an older, unemployed, older worker prove sales?   Well, maybe you can't prove sales if you are unemployed in the sense someone is paying you a salary, but you can prove a user base, even if it's unpaid.

You can do that through web and mobile apps which people are using.  Or one might provide useful free information and build a following and then monetize it as this person has done:  http://www.buydonthold.com/category/blog/

I really like Masonson and believe in his strategy (and have made a little money using it).  The general idea is that you look at a list of high-performing ETFs, which he maintains here:  https://www.etfscreen.com/buydonthold/bdh-decision-page.php and then buy and sell them based on an overall market momentum change which is indicated by (I think, currently 3) signals which he tracks. 

Masonson published a book about his "Buy, Don't Hold" strategy and then published his blog for free for many years.   It's still free, but now he's asking for $20/year for special emailings to subscribers.   A service which I readily signed up for.

What stands out in my mind about Masonson is the goodwill he generates.  He comes across as someone who is genuinely altruistic.  I don't think I'm naive in this regard.  As I said, for many years he did a lot of work to publish his blog that *may* help people invest more wisely.  I say, *may* because I know that modern portfolio theory generally is against market timing. 


« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 05:33:26 am by I D Shukhov »

ilconsiglliere

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Re: Specific Tactics for Landing Technical Jobs as a Mature
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2018, 05:08:07 am »
If you want to do hands on IT work I suggest 2 areas: data science (big data) and security.

Data Science is a really big thing. What do you think Google is all about - its all data and manipulation of that data. Read this about data science:

https://blog.udacity.com/2014/11/data-science-job-skills.html

I already mentioned in a previous post about what the hot individual skills are with data science. Stuff like SAS, NONMEM, R, PSN, Haskall, etc... I manage projects that are all data science and I can tell you for a fact that they cant find people who can do this stuff. I have seen people with these skills get poached. And they get paid a lot more.

Security is a big, big thing now. There is lots of hysteria about data integrity and the hacking. If you want to do security get the CISSP or CISM certs and than you can leverage your past IT experience. Neither of these certs is that hard to get. If you are an American citizen and have these certs there is a high probability the DoD defense companies will look at you.